Coffee With E

The Unspoken Truth About Women Who Lead (ft. Dr. Amber Sessom)

• Erica Rawls

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If you’ve ever felt like you had to shrink yourself to lead, this episode of Coffee with E is for you.

Erica Rawls is joined by Dr. Amber Sessoms, school psychologist, adult educator, and founder of Natural Inclination, for a real conversation about finding your voice, leading with emotional honesty, and unlearning harmful narratives that hold women back.

From leading in male-dominated spaces to calling out abuse in the workplace, this episode is full of eye-opening moments. Dr. Sessom shares how burnout, therapy, and radical truth-telling transformed her career and how she now helps leaders and organizations do the same.

If you’re ready to stop shape-shifting and start living in alignment with your truth, this episode is your call to action.


Guest Info:

Dr. Amber Sessoms, NCSP

🌐 Website: aninclination.com

📸 Instagram: @natural_inclination

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Erica Rawls:

Hey you, I got a great Coffee with E coming for you. This episode is with Dr Amber Sessom, and when I tell you she has a passion for life. She is going to share how we, as women, can learn how to live in our authentic truth, how to own our own voice and oh, by the way, how to lead in a male-dominated industry. I think a lot of times us, as women, we play the, the role that we think, that hey, we're women so we can't really be firm and true to who we are. Nope, this episode she's going to teach you. She's going to teach us how to live in our truth, to walk on our purpose and to lead like a woman. So, dr Amber Sessom, I have you in my chair and we want to chat.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

I'm so excited. Thank you for having me.

Erica Rawls:

Yes, coffee with thee, let's chat. So when you and I actually had a conversation, I was sharing with you that, hey, you know what I? Typically I have questions, but you know, with the new platform and the way we're changing things, I'd really truly want to have a chat. So, based on what we were talking about, that's what we're going to do. We're just going to have a conversation. So, thank you for joining. Yes, yes, so your background if you could just share with the people just a little bit, so our audience and the community that we're building they understand your background. Before we start getting to the deep stuff, Right.

Erica Rawls:

Right, right, yeah. Share who you are, what your profession is and actually your passion. I love that.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

I love that. I talk a lot about what makes you come alive. So that's perfect that you're asking about passion, but I'm, by training, a school psychologist and also an adult educator, so I go birth to earth. So I was 13 years in a local school district here as a practicing school psychologist and then I ventured off in 2021 on my own. I started my own business. So I'm still working alongside school districts or organizations and really helping them be aligned with their vision, mission and values, and I had to do that own work for myself.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

So a lot of us in school psychology we get into the field because we're looking at trying to fix ourselves. But what happens is we often are other focused and we're trying to fix other people. So for me, I had to get real about myself and say it starts with me. So when I go into organizations I'm talking to them about it starts with you. The personal informs the collective. So a lot of that work, I model that through my own life and working with organizations to help them to really live up to their values and really align with that. So I love that. I have three girls, two Australian Labradoodles. So anyone out there that has Aussie doodles they're big, aren't they? Well, they're medium size, so they're about 35 and 46 pounds. We got them during COVID, which probably wasn't the best move, but I'm a nerd and my middle child wrote an entire PowerPoint presentation on why we should get dogs and had better references and I said Devin my husband.

Erica Rawls:

No one else did that.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

I am almost certain that the CEO of our company I think her child did the same thing had a whole presentation that was and it worked, almost certain that she did so it works, and we came out here somewhere in lebanon to pick up this little, tiny little baby, and then six months later we got another one. So, yes, and I have a husband as well. So we got two male dogs because he's been outnumbered by women in the house. So kind of balance it about a little bit.

Erica Rawls:

Well, you don't want a female dog.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

Yeah, I heard about that. Yeah, I don't know. Sometimes I'm like I don't think I wanted a male dog either, but I love them, I'm obsessed with them.

Erica Rawls:

Really, yes, I love that, I love that. So your passion, what is your?

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

passion. I really hope what I can do for people is really center them. We live in a world where we are so pushed to the margins especially if you're someone from a historically minoritized background so we are used to being erased, we're used to being invisible. So if I can hold space for you, if I can just say I see you, I hear you, I value you, that's really what I want to do and make that spark something, come alive. So there's something that I say or something that I can help you to uncover in yourself. I love that moment when they're like I get it, that aha moment, and then that helps them to really illuminate their life and then, hopefully, what that helps is it gives other people permission to do the same.

Erica Rawls:

So what does that process look like?

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

Well, it's that self-interrogation again, right? So people will tell me I didn't know, I was going to talk to you. You're going to make me cry and I was like I'm not trying to. But I think I just see people so deeply and I think we're and again, we're so used to being in a world where we're not seen and I just sometimes I call myself a perpetual toddler, so I'll ask questions, just like little kids do, and they're asking why, and it makes you pause and think and I think there's a beautiful way about holding space for someone. I say the opposite of that is, when you don't believe someone, when they're telling you the truth, the harm that comes, and we all can relate to that.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

When you speak your truth and someone's like, oh, it's not that serious, so they minimize it. To actually just hold space for someone and listen to them is life-changing. So we go through in my work, I go through a process where we're looking at the stories we tell ourselves that the world tells us. These systems tell us where we fit and where we don't fit, where we belong, where we don't belong and when we can listen and unlearn those stories and write a new story. And that's where you can align with what your values, strengths and needs are and then you can move it to action. What is it that I'm put on this earth to do? And so many of us get stuck in the stories that are keeping us bogged down that they can't ever get to fulfilling anything. That burning desire within themselves, they can't get to their passion because they're so stuck in the world, tells me that I'm not this, I'm not enough.

Erica Rawls:

Right, how do you unlearn that? You said tell a different story. So how like that I would think that would take. I'm just thinking about me personally. I think that would take a long time. So my age and you're saying, hey, if there's a truth that you know that's not true, to tell yourself a different story, I think that process would take forever.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

It's ongoing. So even for me, in doing the work, yeah, I still find myself, I can hear the story. It's emerging in my head and I'll say, oh, I can recognize it. So the first step is recognizing it. So when I think about systems, one of the things that we do is we call something called a journey line. So you'll go through this process and we have ebbs and flows in our life. So there's peaks and valleys, but what we don't think about is those peaks and valleys are stories attached to them. There's a narrative that says this worked, this didn't work.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

So for me, one of the earliest examples for me is that my mom left when I was four. So that abandonment that I had and my story was I'm not lovable, because what mother would leave their child. So I carried that throughout so much of my life and trying to be loved, trying to protect myself and make sure everyone around me was safe, and vying for this sense of love that I was still really longing for from my biological mother. So it led me to some of it. It worked for me, right? So some of these stories, they can make you work really hard to become what you want to become, but then some of those don't ever serve you anymore. So I had to let go of always having to overcompensate, always having to be worked 10 times as hard. I had to let some of that go because it was depleting me.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

And when I could realize that and see where it showed up in my life so I have a picture there when I do keynotes, there's a picture of me in my office when I was still in the office and I'm sitting here like this, depleted.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

It was a week before COVID and I use that in an image with Dr Tamer Bryant who does a lot of work called homecoming. So she's a licensed therapist and she talks about when we're numbing ourselves. We're the sense of emotional homelessness and I was so depleted I just kept going and going and going and COVID was that blessing in disguise where I had to sit still and really get curious about myself. So that emotional homelessness so much of us particularly me as a Black woman growing up in central Pennsylvania I had to really think about. There's so much that I just kept doing and doing and thinking. That was my story, that I had to wear the cape, that I always have to be the one to be the helper, that it was depleting me and it was causing physical issues. I had medical issues and my body was telling me you need to slow down.

Erica Rawls:

Yeah, so how did you recognize that, or how did you determine that the abandonment was allowing you to overcompensate in some areas, like? How did you get to that point that you knew that that was the thing that was triggering the overcompensation that you were experiencing, part of it was the story.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

So not enough. A really horrible narrative I had about myself is that I'm the bastard child of Middletown and I remember isn't that horrible, but I said it, I remember saying it. So here's a big thing. I went to I found a therapist that looked like me and I told her. I said listen, I know how this goes. People are usually intimidated because I know the background. I need you to bring it. And I remember saying that to her and she said do you hear what you just said about yourself? I just said it, so matter of fact. So I've lived my life as a reporter just reporting the facts. And she, what she had me do was sit still enough to embody what I was actually feeling and say where does that rest in your body? Where do you store that?

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

So, that's where I was so disconnected because it was, it was so painful that I had to have someone that gave me permission to say this is okay, you need to do this work. And where is it sitting in your body? And when I felt it, it was a hamster wheel running in my chest. Wow Right, that pressure that I was feeling. So that's what gave me permission to do the work. So when I could attach those narratives, when I could speak it out loud and share it with someone who was going to hold space for me, because our stories are in our heads, they live there every day. We're always narrating, but what I could say here's what I think or what I say when these things happen. And she goes let's talk about that and, like you're doing right, tell me where that came from, where did you get that from? And that's what gave me the permission. But I was just on go for 40 years of my life.

Erica Rawls:

Yeah, I'm just thinking about someone that doesn't have, like, the education or the background to determine. Okay, yeah, this is attached to this. Like how do they know that? Okay, yeah, I need to get some help. Right, you know what I mean. To work through that that was, you know, that's where I was coming from as far as that perspective, like how can we help someone that doesn't have the technical, I guess, mindset or the training that you went through and then have someone else come to you and say, hey, well, I guess it is the same, because you didn't even know. You were just like reporting it. Like you said, yes, just before I had very matter of fact On the outside, even though you had they mirror the emotion that I see, right.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

When you said, oh no, right, you're mirroring, oh wait, I should feel something that's not OK, that's not normal.

Erica Rawls:

Yeah. So when yeah, that's what I was thinking about I was like, oh my gosh, that's, that's kind of traumatic, but we do it all the time. I think we as women do it all the time yeah, just like. Okay, it's whatever, you know, we'll have a certain feeling, we'll, we'll compartmentalize it and just keep moving on until we, you know, we just break down. So the up and downs are that too, like I'll just keep it moving, keep it moving, keep it moving. And so my feelings are like no, you're going to deal with this now.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

Right, yeah, but I always say our bodies are our greatest teachers.

Erica Rawls:

Yeah.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

If we're not listening, your body's going to tell you. For me, another part was I was waking up in the middle of the night having panic attacks. In my sleep I didn't even know that could happen.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

Oh wow, all this training in psychology. And I remember going to my doctor saying heart disease runs in my family, and they're like Amber, you know what this is? No, no, no, run these tests. Give me the echocardiogram Right. Do all the tests. All the tests. It came back, everything's fine and but I never experienced it Right, it was so bad. I was so on go that my body's like we'll just get her at rest when she's asleep, we'll just wake her up. And that's what it was. I'm like okay, let's deal with this.

Erica Rawls:

It was an invitation, it was a strong invitation to do my own work. Wow, yeah, that is amazing. I want to take two seconds to share with you that this particular episode is brought to you by Rob Shaw and Allstate Insurance. If you're looking for someone to give you insurance, whether it's home insurance, car insurance go to him. He is your guy. Thank you, rob, for sponsoring this show. So then, what is one of the challenges that you're seeing for women that are ambitious and go-getters and upwardly mobile? That you see that they struggle with.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

One of the biggest things women tell me is they're modeling off of what their male counterparts told them to do. So I remember one time I had to have a really hard conversation with a leader and they were saying these negative things about her. I said they don't trust you so they're not going to follow you. And what she said was I thought I had to show up this way because my male counterpart said you have to be tough, you have to be all these things. And that's dehumanizing because for women, we are emotional and that narrative has played out right.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

I'm thinking about in psychology. I'll never forget learning about hysteria and how we will have these ailments and they'll say and they do that to this day for doctors, oh that's just because of this or it's not really something serious. But hysteria goes back as old as time. So the minute that you show your emotion as a female leader, you're weak. So we're constantly trying to disrupt these narratives or minimize them, and what that does? It leads us farther away from our authenticity, and if we're not being authentically who we are, then there's no room for growth, there's no room for expansion. So that is the biggest thing for women and what I also hear from women.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

I was working with a group of lawyers and they said when I go into the courtroom, they think I'm the paralegal. Or when I go into meetings, I go into five or six different meetings and I'm five or six different people in every meeting and the male counterparts had no, they couldn't comprehend that. They said I'm myself every time, every place I go. But we're shape-shifting because the world tells us that we don't fit. So we're trying to fit in all these different boxes and it's exhausting, and that's what the woman was saying. It's exhausting.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

But to give yourself permission to be yourself is that you have to do your own work and say I love myself, how I show up is the gift that I bring to this world. But so many of us don't know that when you're talking about passion and when you can tap into what is my passion, you can live more freely to do that. But yeah, it's so much shape-shifting, it's so much the stories and how I have to show up. And then when I can say, let's name that and then let's move in a different direction. There is a freedom and what I've noticed, when leaders, especially female leaders, can do that, it changes the entire culture of the organization, because now I can show up as myself. If I'm crying in a meeting or I'm upset in a meeting, it doesn't mean that I'm weak. It means that I'm a human being.

Erica Rawls:

Right.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

So no longer are we in the days of being in education or being in the workplace where we'll say I have to leave business here and leave home at home. Covid has meshed that a bit, but it's also why do I need to be a bifurcated person? One of the questions I ask is what part of myself am I leaving at the door before I walk into your organization? And that part I'm leaving at the door is the part that you need to be great.

Erica Rawls:

Yeah.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

Right, if I'm coming into a board meeting, so good. So the thing about it. You come into a meeting and you're like I can't, I don't feel safe enough to talk, you're not going to get the best of me and you need this genius. So that's what I'm trying to get people to do is understand if you create a workplace where everyone can thrive and they feel seen, you're going to get the best of them. And those ideas that are hiding behind that barrier that you've created are not making your organization thrive.

Erica Rawls:

You cannot be well-received at corporations all the time because just hearing you say you're right, just hearing you say no, the way we're doing it for over a hundred years, it needs to change right. You need to live in your authentic truth and come as you are, and that is hard.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

It's not, and so here's how the model that I built that will help me to be able to do that. I have to meet with the CEOs, superintendents or whoever one-on-one.

Erica Rawls:

Yeah.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

So it's either twice a month or it's once a month, because we have to have those hard conversations. And that's why the push is because it's a reflection on them and their leadership. Yeah, a reflection on them and their leadership. It's a reflection of the stories they told themselves about how they have to step into leadership. Well, I thought I had to be this way.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

And how's that working for you? Because you're running ragged and you're working like you're a machine. Therefore, you're making sure that your employees work like a machine and it's not working for anyone. And then the employee end they'll say well, they make all that money, so they should just be dealing with it. I don't care if they're working 24-7. And I'm like, but they're still human beings. So I humanize their experience and say you have a family? Or even if you don't have a family, you still have to do something outside of work that brings you joy, that makes you come alive. But you're right, it's not well-received. But when I can meet with them one-on-one and we can have the hard conversations, I can look at the data and I do employee engagement surveys and I say here's what your climate survey says. Let's look at how we can look at the different buckets that we need to fix this, if you want to fix it.

Erica Rawls:

And one of the first things.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

I say I'm not coming if you're not going to be a courageous leader Because it takes courage to face that and confront it and if you're not and I also have to think about I have to protect myself. So even in entrepreneurship and business owners, sometimes we'll go after that contract because, oh, that's a great contract and at the end of the day I'm still a human being and I have to honor my own dignity. And if you're not going to honor my dignity, then it's not the place for me.

Erica Rawls:

Wow, this is really good, because my platform is all about just owning who you truly are, being your and your true authentic self and living right fully in that, yeah, you're able to execute your purpose, because I believe that that's tied to your authentic self, is tied to your purpose. Like you were saying, right, 100%, you can't do one or the other, and right, you are going to be shortchanging yourself as well as, I believe, the community in which you're serving when you try to do that. Yes, so to hear you say that is just so gratifying.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

Yes, and that's the thing too about sitting down and holding space for people. It's that you feel seen right. It's like, oh my gosh, I know this is true and then see, it makes you feel less alone.

Erica Rawls:

Yes, makes you feel less alone. Yeah, so it's just I don't know. Thank you for that, because I know there's a lot of people in the community that we're building that needs to hear that, because we do have strong and courageous women and they're afraid to show that. Oh yeah, I do have a soft side.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

Oh, see that just I've been working on that in therapy. No, but you'll that. And I felt that Because one of the questions I've been asking myself is what does a softer Amber look like? I'm meeting her now, but all of my life I've had to be so hard. I thought I had to be right Because I couldn't depend or I thought I couldn't depend on people to love me the way I needed to be loved.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

And one of the ways that I've found is I had to identify what my needs were. And I have my clients who are like what are your needs? Like what is it that you need? And there's different parameters and different buckets and there's basic, fundamental things we need, just as human beings to thrive, but that belonging piece. We often skip over that and go to performance. So, thinking about what are the things I need to feel belong? Thinking about where are the things I need to feel belong? We're all looking for belonging.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

Human beings are interconnected people, right, but this world, particularly our society, wants us to be disconnected and individual and that's not how we thrive. So when you said that softness, how do we invite that in when the stigma is for women that it makes you weak Because the males that are showing any emotion, it makes them weak. They're not strong leaders, and that could not be farther from the truth. When I see leaders that embody in their wholeness of who they are, they are more effective leaders when they can say you know what? Let me sit and hold space for you and listen to what you have to say. They're better leaders because they're creating a culture of trust and transparency.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

But when you're sitting in your ivory tower making all these decisions and you're never sitting with the people that you are saying, you're in service to or that are working on your behalf, you're going to be disconnected. And then the stories start right. Well, they just sit up there and they think this right, but you never hear that, and I'm the bridge to that. I'm saying well, here's what the community is saying, here's what your staff are saying, and what do you want to collectively do about it together? So, bringing them in to build a community, so that we can be more collaborative together.

Erica Rawls:

Is it possible that leaders are afraid to humanize their role because of the decisions that they have to make and the fact that they may, if they act human right, or they have those feelings and are allowing others to come in and see that then it'll be harder for them to make decisions that may affect the person that they finally got to trust, right? Yes, so because of that, there may be some of the reasons why it's like okay, well, yeah, if I let people in and they see that I'm human and I'm showing my softer side, then we become friends. And if we become friends, then how am I supposed to separate that from business and friendship? Right, and then if I have to let them go, well, now I have to tell my friend I got to let them go, so then it starts affecting, like it's just the spiraling that happens. So is it possible that people are like well, yeah, there's only portions of myself that I want to share in the event that I need to make business decisions that could affect the person?

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

It's a very common narrative, very common, and I've been in organizations where they had to let tens, of twenties of people go, and that was one of the things that they said. And I remember it was so cold and they brought me in after they had already done this mass firing and they said we just wanted to let you know. And all they did was they read the statement. So the HR director was there, the executive director is there, and they just said we just want to read you something and kind of how.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

Earlier I said what my narrative was and how you were like, oh my gosh, I modeled and was like that is so hard and it jolted them because they were just in their business mode about we let these people go and I'm like let's humanize that. You just let all these people go. They moved across the country for this job and service too. Oh, Amber, and that's the part, right, but it's not like to be, but I want to tend to see like they are human too and like they get caught in. I have to be this way because I'm an HR director.

Erica Rawls:

No, you're a human being. It sucks.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

I will be crying like oh gosh, thank you, but that's right. But that's what people see. And when I come in, even for leaders, what they'll say is well, we focus so much on the staff or so much on the students and no one cares about us. And when I come in, they're like you're the first person that ever said that this must be hard for me and that disarms them, because they thought they had to be machines and thought they had to be this leader in this way. And I'm trying to bring a new way of leadership where we're working alongside and collaboration and no longer has to be top down, and that's very different for our society, because we're still used to having one person in charge and it trickles down. And what we're seeing now, especially with COVID that great resignation.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

I feel like I led that Beyonce's song came out a year too late. You Won't Break my Soul. I'm like that's my theme song. So when I tell the story about me leaving, I'm like Beyonce songs playing in the background. But that's the big thing. People and I mentor younger people and they will stay at a job for three weeks, okay, and they will say they were not respecting me. I'm out, wow, and it's hard. So we have to.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

We have all these different generations in the workplace now, but we're still operating from that very old mindset hierarchy. This is how we're going to do things here. And this new generation is butting against that and saying that's dehumanizing. And if we got real with ourselves, it has been in a lot of ways dehumanizing for us and we just accepted it, we normalized it. And they're trying to force us to see that the world doesn't have to be this way. And we're still over here white knuckling it. So there is a constant tension and I believe in that reciprocal mentorship. I don't have all the answers. Even if I have all these degrees or all this experience. You even my 10 year old right, you can still teach me and you have to be willing and open to listen, not just to hold space and say that was nice, thank you, but to say there's wisdom in what you said that can drive this organization forward.

Erica Rawls:

Yeah. So I guess I want to be a little selfish here. I need to go back this a little bit, because one of the things I'm thinking about is okay, so we let that person go, or what would it be to delivery instead of being cold? Right, like, what are you saying? The new stance should be Okay, you built this relationship. Oh, it's not working out, for whenever they're not meeting there, you know they're not, they're not meeting, doing well their evaluations. You know performance is low, like OK, but now we're friends now?

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

Oh, because you've been friends.

Erica Rawls:

Yeah, how are we letting them go Right? The human, the human side of us needs to know, ok. So thanks, amber. We're friends now we're collaborating. We have this new culture here, right.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

And I got to let them go. Well, I think it's all those steps before that. I think what you said is we have to be really clear when we're talking about friend, because I think we throw that term around so loosely we do.

Erica Rawls:

Right, I'm going to have an episode on it.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

I can't wait to see that we do. Yeah, we just, oh, they're my friend, they're really not Right, and I do that work with my clients. Well, I'll say we have these pods and I say, if you have something that you're really struggling with, like, who are the people that you tell?

Erica Rawls:

Well, there's a connection. There's a connection.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

You know the family right, you went out one weekend you know, whatever you just Can you be your full self. If you're coming in here like I, have to pretend you're also going to drive or attract people that are also fake. I won't say they're fake, but if you're not being yourself, you're going to attract people that are not aligned with your authenticity.

Erica Rawls:

Hey, I'm hoping you're enjoying this episode of Coffee with E. I had to take 30 seconds to share with you one of our sponsors for this episode, top Construction. They are a premier construction company located in central PA, so if you live in Dauphin, cumberland, lancaster and Lebanon counties, you want to check them out. Not only are they reliable, they are reasonable and they get the job done. Now let's go back to the episode.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

So part of that work that I do is I say, okay, who are your people? And stop calling all work people your friends. They're really not, because they don't know what you're going through at home, like if they were your friends, your friends would know that. So that is part of the work that I do. But also what I've had to do is when they have to have these really hard layoffs or firing people. Most of the time I'm brought in when it is, there's a lot of disruption in the workplace.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

But there was a recent incident where it was someone that was doing something really unlawful and because it was a human element, the way that they handled it, because they cared and they had been working collaboration. They could have done X, y and Z and been really punitive, and they didn't because they had humanity. But what we had to do is we had to have a healing circle with the staff because they were so hurt and we couldn't tell them the reasoning behind it because of confidentiality. But the healing circle helped them to be able to articulate the pain that they were feeling. I remember the director was in there crying because she felt so badly what she had to do and people were upset with her and they didn't understand so she had to voice that. But that healing circle. I remember walking away from that and people said we need to do more of this.

Erica Rawls:

Really.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

I know, because you're like oh, that sounds awful, right, that sounds really hard. But people, because people want to be heard, people want to be voiced, and it gives you the language. And when you walk and you're going around the room and you have a talking stick and people are saying, oh my gosh, I felt the same way. I didn't have the language and now you gave me the language and that is such a powerful opener and it creates a more cohesive work culture.

Erica Rawls:

Giving Brene Brown the rumble, you know when she talks about rumbling. That's what this is giving Like. You're allowing people to be their authentic self, right? Yes, In order to have those fierce conversations, you know, with your coworkers. That's what this is giving, yes, which I love. Rumbling, I do. No, I do. I love that. Yeah, I do, I enjoy it. I'm probably I don't know I see myself as being unique in that way because I'm okay with having one. I don't fear confrontation. I don't, Because I don't see it as a negative thing. I see it as getting clarity and understanding. People see confrontation as negative and that's why they don't want to have the conversation. Yes, yes, so, and two, I'm coming in with pure intentions of truly getting it to understand Right and I know myself right. If I know the confrontation is to um, I'm coming in with guns blazing. I don't have the conversation right Because I don't know how to answer either party well, so confrontations to me are healthy as long as everyone knows what their true intention is and there's trust.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

That part. So there has to be a level of relation with that. So, sonia Renee Taylor, I love her work but she talks about a calling in and there's some other people that talk about calling in versus calling out. But when she says you're being called in or called on, it's a desire to be in right relationship with someone, which means you have to have a relationship. So if you don't, and I'm coming to you and saying these things, it's going to be a calling out because we have no trust and my barrier is going to be up. So that takes a lot of relationships. So that work.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

When I'm doing healing circles, I'm doing that with organizations where we have already established that trust. We've already done some of that groundwork. But every single time they say we need to do more of this because they feel heard and it's not just listening to them and letting them bet. I have to reframe it for the leaders because they just say people just want to complain. This is an opportunity. It's an opportunity and you can build solutions off of that.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

But we get so focused on the problem we don't see the opportunity in what they're saying. They might not be able to name how to fix it, but there's a need that they're saying and I can help to guide you and like okay, here's an opportunity for growth, here's how we can move towards a solution, and I think that is really powerful to get people to reframe that. So, even if I'm calling you in, right, so I'm the same way. Ooh, my daughter will tell me my oldest or my, even my 10 year old and I'm like, ooh, I felt that I have some work to do, right, maybe not all the time it comes out that perfect At your house.

Erica Rawls:

Just just one week, just to hear that all these times it's hard.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

I remember my oldest one. She was young. She wrote my husband and I this 10 or two page letter and she just said all the things she wanted to say and he's like this is disrespectful. And I said this is great she's opening up and telling us.

Erica Rawls:

He's like what is wrong with you. But I said, she's finding her voice, see, finding your voice. One thing I think we as a women, right, we have a hard time understanding or knowing or finding right as we grow up, because we're taught that okay one, and if I want to break it down even further, this goes for all women. But, however, I know from my personal experience, you know, being a black woman in a predominantly white school, right. I know from my personal experience, you know, being a Black woman in a predominantly white school, right, I know there were multiple times where I would get called out because I was aggressive in the way that I talk or I scared someone in the way that I spoke, right. So this is all just based on my, my truth that it actually started.

Erica Rawls:

I noticed that then I started being more meek in my approach when I actually had conversations with people and it just perpetuated until I got older to the point where I was just like no, and literally it was when because I'm now associate broker and it was one incident that I had from a previous brokerage and the same incident occurred and I'm like why is this bothering me? I said you know what Nope they're going to have, I have to live in my authentic truth. Yes, I am strong in my words and my nature, right. However, I have great intentions. I don't, I don't have any harm or ill will towards anyone, and it was in that moment I realized hey, erica, yeah, you may not have everyone like you, right? However, you have to stand true to who you are. Yes, you know what I mean.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

It's self-betrayal.

Erica Rawls:

Yeah, it's self-betrayal yeah, trying to mold myself into what people want me to be, as opposed to who I am.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

Right.

Erica Rawls:

I'm not quiet, right, and I'm not meek. I can be quiet and meek because I'm observing a room Right, right. So people may perceive that as being shy, but once I understand the lay of the land, then that's when I start talking Right. So I have that, what they call that quiet confidence.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

I love that.

Erica Rawls:

Yes, I do have that. So, just to hear us having this conversation, I'm thinking you know what? There's so many different pieces. So, to the person or to the woman that does not know how to find their voice is who we want to speak to and let them know that, hey, look, it's okay to be your true, authentic self, speak your truth, Right. That does not give you permission to be disrespectful.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

At all. Pop off whenever you want to.

Erica Rawls:

There's a difference. There is there's a difference. However, it also allows you to speak firmly to whomever it is. You know about the way that you're feeling.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

Yes, and how I modeled that so good that you're saying that? Because I will bring all of me into the boardroom and I will say I will name my feelings. I'll say I am frustrated right now, so they already know, and then I'll name why I'm frustrated. But that has helped people because it's also an invitation to say I shouldn't be the only one frustrated. And then people are like oh, she's naming what she's feeling so that you don't see me as I'm going to threaten you, I'm going to hurt you Because, like you're saying, my positionality as a Black woman is that I am a threat, I'm aggressive. No, I'm just being direct. I think people say to me I thought you were going to put your hands on me.

Erica Rawls:

Yeah right.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

Oh, you're scaring me. I'd never want to get you touched. Why would you do that? And I lean with curiosity. Yeah, what would make you say that? Yeah, and they can't not used to women being direct.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

But we have to speak truth to power. I have to be able to say the things because, especially if you're harming children, because working with school psychologists, or if I'm working with an organization, you're harming people, I have to be able to say that and what the hope is I'm not going to be the only one that's going to say it that I'm also guiding you and helping you build your personal agency so that you can do the same, because it's always me. That's where the burnout came from and I bought into. I have to be the one. I always have to be the one, because I lean into that confrontation, that curiosity I call it compassionate curiosity, but I will name the thing and I might be the only one in the room, and this is what I can't stand. Have you ever been in a room and you say the thing and then people will send you a message, a little comment to you after we said oh my gosh, I was thinking the same thing. The water cooler conversation. Please don't do that. Don't do that. I cannot stand that. And what I encourage you to say why are you saying that now? Why don't you say it in a meeting?

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

Yeah, one of the most powerful things we can do, particularly for other women who will speak truth to power, is we can echo them. And I've had my male colleagues do this for me. I mean, I'm talking about talking to the governor and they said I agree with what Dr Sessom said and that is so affirming because it will get missed. Well, that just might be Amber's thing. Of course Amber's going to say that and it turns into it's more systemic. There's a real issue going on here. It's not just Amber has a chip on her shoulder and the more we can echo and that builds again your courage. But I've done that in real time with people and say we have to echo when someone says something don't go to the water cooler, don't go to the parking lot, because that's harmful, because it becomes a her issue. And we live in an individualistic society that says it's the individual problem instead of the collective. So when we can move towards that, we have some growth.

Erica Rawls:

Big thank you to Sugaring NYC Harrisburg for sponsoring this episode. It's because of them we're able to bring this great content to you. Are you searching for a fabulous place that does lashes and eyebrows that slay, or hair removal that just makes you feel so great? You want to check them out. Now back to our show. Well, you know what, Dr Sessom, You're going to have to forgive me. You want to know why? Because I was that person that would text people like girl. I used to be that person. Like. I'm not even going to sit here, so I want the people to know that there's evolution that can occur.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

There is Evolution that can occur and I'm so curious, I'm like what was it for you that made you get to that part?

Erica Rawls:

It was a lack of courage that made me want to text. Yeah, lack of courage to speak my truth, right. But then when I got to the point where I'm just like you know what, it's whatever, you know, right, because I wanted so much, wow, and we have a therapy session, I think I wanted so much for people to like me.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

See, goes back to belonging. Yeah, you said it earlier and I was like that's what she's talking about. Yeah, you want to be liked. Yeah, but you also said that was more important than me to be heard than being. Wow. Think of how many people are living in that.

Erica Rawls:

I got goosebumps. Oh my gosh.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

And we're robbing the world of our genius. I'm like it is so. So that's the part, see, this is why we're like that light bulb thing. This is like, this is what I live for. But no, but you can, I don't have to say that. You just weave it, you make meaning your own, and I think that's the beauty of just holding space and just giving some time for people and you will make that meaning on your own. We don't have to have these people say here's how it is, in a step-by-step.

Erica Rawls:

Yeah, I think we cover up the lack of courage right to make it look prettier in a prettier outfit. We just say, well, I'm going to be misunderstood so I'm not going to talk.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

Yes, and then you wear that chip on your shoulder.

Erica Rawls:

Yes, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

Yeah, definitely, because there's a barrier and you're making me think about. Have you done the Enneagram? Have you ever heard of that?

Erica Rawls:

So this is a personality assessment. Which one? This is the one with the numbers, no.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

So I had a client recently and they said have you ever done the Enneagram? I said no, all the psychological training, but I've never done that. And she goes I bet you're an eight. I took the assessment of 98% of eight. Eights are activists, eights will say the thing, and it was so eye-opening. So another thing that I do with my clients is we work through these personality assessments Again, whether your values, your strengths and your needs and knowing yourself and knowing where you show up well and maybe where you don't show up so well, that it's not saying that you're not great, it's not your totality of a human, but it's saying so-and-so over here was really great at that and I'm not so great at that.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

So I'm going to collaborate better with them. I did that real time with a leader and she was going to come in and gut this whole program and I said if you do that, they're going to hate you. And we had already taken the strengths assessment and she said well, you know what I'm going to bring in this person because there's so much more compassion. She was very direct with this person, was more compassionate and they walked away with a solution. And that's what we have to do. Stop guarding ourselves and pretending that we have all the answers.

Erica Rawls:

I think that's well, lack of a better term. I think it's being fake too, because you don't have all the answers. No one does.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

I'm like we're not God so we need to work and commune with other people. But yeah, I think to your point about that. We can be these fake people and we're going to pull in more fake people. We're not going to pull in those authentic to ourselves. So I just love that that you're making those connections, and the more that we can do that, the more the better off we'll be. Authenticity, it's key. And people you know what, though?

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

I've had some people, particularly black and brown people, that will push back when I say that and say I don't have the safety to do that in my organization. Right, and I have to honor that, Right, Because they say well, you can walk in your truth, Even as a black woman. They say it is not safe for me to do that here. So that leads me farther down the path to say that's data. Why is it not safe for certain bodies of people to do that? But I appreciate when they push on that because it's what we bought into and it's real.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

I remember my mom even saying what I'd have to go and speak to a leader and she goes be careful, I don't want you to lose your job. Wow, and that's the first thing people will say, when I get down to it, there's a fear of if I say this, I'm going to lose my job. And I've had to model that and say well, I've gone to the school board, I've gone to X, Y and Z and I still have a job. So why would you think that? But it's been ingrained in our society, right? Because we know rage, we know backlash is real if you're coming up against leadership that talks about the coalition of the willing.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

How do I build this coalition so I don't have to stand alone and even if my voice quivers, I can still stand in that. But part of it is disrupting this narrative that, if I don't say it, and that's to keep us quiet, right, thinking about civil rights movement, I think about all these things, that it is just the thought of fear, the thought of violence that keeps you quiet and that has been a tactic. We always feel like we're being surveilled or always feel like we're going to be punished, and it keeps us quiet and that's why so many people are unhappy. That's why people in the workplace, they just do their nine to five or nine to nine. They work all day and they're not happy and they can't speak up because they're afraid of this narrative. I'm going to get fired.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

And I've noticed when people will say the thing and sometimes I don't have them say it directly. I do the surveys and it comes out in the surveys and it's multiple people, there's an overwhelming theme. I say okay, and then I'll do the focus groups after that. So I'll do the surveys, I do all that data and then I say here's the focus groups. And then people will say, oh my gosh, yes, this is how I feel, but here's how we're driving solutions, so we don't stay stuck in the problem of it. We say, now, how can we drive the solution of it?

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

And I think that's powerful, that it has to be this cohesive, this voice, this chorus that you're not alone, because this world will have you thinking you're the only one. And it's a beautiful tactic. It works. It works. It keeps us quiet, it keeps us in our own little corner, and we are. So. A lot of us are going through the similar things, even if we have different skin tones, different racial backgrounds. We are going through similar experience because we've all been dehumanized. And those, even if you think they have power and they're living, you know, these dreamy lives, they're still being dehumanized and what they do is then they dehumanize other people, right?

Erica Rawls:

Wow, I don't have any words. This is really good, like really good. There's a lot to chew on here. Yeah, a lot to chew on. I think that you gave people permission to know that, yeah, they can speak using their own voice, find their own voice, and if they don't know how, they can come to you to find their voice, and if they don't know how they can come to you to find their voice. Am I right?

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

Yes, I love that. That's the work that I do. So you know, one-on-one or in groups. I love nothing more. I will do cohorts with organizations and we work through 10 months of just every month coming back and doing some real work. I have workbooks and we work through that and it's finding your voice, but it's also finding the organizational voice and getting back to being in alignment, because everyone has a great vision statement, everyone has a great mission statement, and when I come and I say where are you in and out of alignment, it's glaring and then that's the work that we can do. But you can't do that just as a CEO, just as a superintendent. You have to do that in collaboration with not just the staff but the community. So it's been really helpful to do that, but it makes people come alive because they find their voice.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

We're no longer thinking that you're in middle school. There's something about organizations that we treat people like they're children and I just think that's disrespect. I'm like I'm a full grown adult, and even when I was a child, though, I would say I'm still a human being. Why are you talking to me like that? So I try to disrupt that thought of. Why are you yelling at them. Yeah, they're human beings At work. Yes, I've had people that have said that they have PTSD from their leaders.

Erica Rawls:

Oh my gosh.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

And we had to sit and I mean, I had a whole group of C-suite people and they said they scream and yell at me, no, and they had been doing this for 15 years. So then when they got a new leadership, they were still operating and that's still that same fear mindset. And I had to say you have to, we've now moved on and we have to let that go. But so many people are dealing with that every day and we don't know it until you give them the space to name it and you're like, oh my gosh, you've been dealing with this for 15 years. That's not okay.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

But, they thought it was okay because I got this high paying salary, isn't it okay?

Erica Rawls:

That's abuse.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

Wouldn't you think it is abuse? I've had people say that to me. We did a presentation on Black female leadership within school psychology at our national conference. This lady is in the audience weeping. She had to get up, come back in, still couldn't get herself together. Afterwards I just said can I give you a hug? And I hugged her and she goes. You gave me the language. I didn't know what it was called and she said my abuser is at this conference. She called her boss her abuser, and I'm thinking that language is powerful, right. Abuse. And how many of us don't even realize that that's what's happening? You named it. It's abuse that we think, well, I'm getting this paycheck. This is just how it is and it doesn't have to be let's verbal abuse it's verbal abuse and there's a lot of people enduring this and we don't know.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

Or I have people say, oh my gosh, I'm having panic attacks, I'm having heart palpitations, I can't sleep.

Erica Rawls:

That's not okay and it can happen too, because I've had in the past experience where I had colleagues that were actually yelling at me in front of the rest of the team and I'm just sitting there with a blank face like, okay, now everyone's looking at me on how I'm going to be reacting, so I'm going to keep my peace Right To show them that, no, this is not my issue, this is their issue. Yeah Right, so it's the silence that woke everybody up like, oh OK, she's not going to feed.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

No, you're not going to feed into that.

Erica Rawls:

I'm not feeding into that nonsense because that's abuse and clearly there was something that was triggering and I can't help that.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

And also, then who is going to handle that? Because that's not okay, that is not okay. And then when you do that publicly, that sends a message to the culture of how we do things at this organization and that needs to be addressed publicly and that's the work that I do. I've had a really I had that happen to me screaming at me and I remember saying we had just worked on how are we going to collaborate better and I said are we going to allow her to speak to me like that, Because she wouldn't allow me to speak and I'm trying to speak and it was Zoom. Back then I remember her trying to kick me out of the Zoom room.

Erica Rawls:

Yeah.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

And they tried to speak. And I remember one woman. She was trying to be an ally and she started crying because it was so hard for her to speak. But in that moment I was calling the man like no, let's do the work in this moment, because I'm being harmed and you're going to allow her to harm me.

Erica Rawls:

Yeah.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

And then we had to have a meeting after that. But I said that needs to publicly be addressed, because all these leaders were in the room and you said nothing and you allowed that to happen, and that's hard.

Erica Rawls:

But people don't want to. They want to do it behind closed doors. Well, it's just this one thing. No, you sent a message, the entire organization do it all over again. Because I definitely be like, okay, you can leave, you can pack your bags right and you can leave. But in that moment I'm like no, because if I say anything, it's not going to come out and you know yourself and I think that's the work.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

You know yourself and also you're saying it's not my problem, it's your problem, but I do want. There's a message there. But who came to check in on you? Because you're probably the strong one? Oh, and I've had that happen. You're so strong in how you handle that. I'm like I was. That was actually. It couldn't have been me. Yes, but I'm like. But you keep saying that you're so in awe of the strength that I had or the way that I addressed that. Yeah, but you stayed silent the whole time and you let me have to defend that on my own. And so those are conversations.

Erica Rawls:

I have to have Peace, yeah.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

Yeah, and I that comes from me like being an Enneagram eight, like I am the protector. If that would have been me in that room in a very different situation. But I've had to work on my boundaries. That my I can't always be everyone's protector, because you're also grown.

Erica Rawls:

Yeah, so I'm working on that.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

But even just something as simple as we were walking down the street and I saw this unhoused man and we were in Seattle and there's a lot of addiction issues and my friend who's full grown I scoot her over to the side to protect her and I had to laugh at myself and say I'm always in that hyper vision scanning and always looking to protect. But that's a part of my trauma and those are the part of the stories that got me to where I'm getting to. But how a part of my trauma and those are the part of the stories that got me to where I'm getting to. But how do I let some of that go?

Erica Rawls:

So now I'm learning she's grown, it's okay, that is so true, because had it been directed to anyone else in the room then I would have attacked Right, but because it was directed towards me, I was like, okay, I'm going to absorb this all because I'm strong enough to handle it. Yes and yes, yeah, but it doesn't make it right that you're strong enough. It did not, it did not.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

And that goes back to what you were saying earlier when I talk to women and we think that's the part we do. We other mother, everyone else, we're the caretakers for everyone, but who's taking care of us? Yeah, and you will take that on, because I want to be in service to others, I'm going to support. I can handle this. But we say I can handle it, I'm built for this. Yeah, no one should have to be built for that.

Erica Rawls:

This is so good. I mean, we can just keep going on and on and on. Just in case you don't know, these episodes are brought to you and funded majority from my real estate team, the Erica Ross team. So thank you for continuing to support this channel and if you're looking to sponsor in any way, one of the best gifts you can give us is a referral. So if you know anyone that's looking to buy or to sell, reach out to us. We are here to help. I know you added value to the community. I know they're going to be in the comment. Oh, I hope so. Yes, and I'm definitely gonna make sure that we tag you. Yes, and I think I might need to bring you back or something, something.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

No, I love it. No, I really it's so. Like you said, you just want to be a conversation. That's what I love the most.

Erica Rawls:

Yeah, and that's all we did. That's it. You had coffee with E? Yes, I did, and I love it. So then, if anyone is an individual work or you do corporate work, I do individual and corporate.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

Okay, I will say corporate I love. So corporate's your passion. I do because I love doing systems level work. So for school psychology we are systems level change agents. We come in and we can see the system. We do all the data collection. We say, okay, here's how we can fix it in teams with leadership. I do love that.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

I write a robust report. I say here's the themes that come out of it. Now what can we put in place? Because here's now a three to five year plan. I don't need you to do everything now. But individual is also. So what I usually build in for my corporate work is there's still individual times to meet with me. So I do office hours because that helps people when they're still learning and they're uncovering things to say I didn't want to say anything in the meeting, but can I come to you privately? And because I keep that confidential, it does help people to develop their own language and their own personal agency, to build up the courage. It takes time. I don't expect everyone to come out the gate and say the thing, and that's unfair. To think that to everyone has to be like us, like that's not fair. People grow at their own pace, so I give different ways for them to engage and get the information Okay.

Erica Rawls:

That's wonderful. And then how can someone get in contact with you? We're going to give all the contact information, okay, we'll make sure.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

My website probably has the most information, so www at inclinationcom. So you'll see podcasts on there, you'll see coaching opportunities, you'll see individual versus organizational development. Yeah, thank you my favorite color is mustard yellow. Y'all, I didn't wear it today, but yeah, I love your website.

Erica Rawls:

Yeah, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time that you took out of your day. I appreciate you, too, because you held space for me, so thank you. Girl, thank you.

Dr. Amber Sessoms:

No, that's a gift. No, that is a gift y'all. So if you ever have the opportunity, it is a gift. So thank you.

Erica Rawls:

You're welcome, appreciate you, alrighty y'all. I'm looking forward to seeing you all in the comments.

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